i received an email from a fellow free methodist pastor over our list-serve with a link to a sermon by john wesley published in the year 1750. the sermon is on the subject of earthquakes, huge waves, and God's judgment. i thought wesley made some interesting points about God's judgment on sinful people. read his sermon here.
what i found most interesting, however, was this response from another fm pastor over the list-serve:
"I was recently reading in R.C. Sproul's THE HOLINESS OF GOD the chapter on"Holy Justice" in which he deals with some of "the most difficult, most offensive passages we can find in the Old Testament..." He deals with Nadab and Abihu, Uzziah, and the slaughter of the Canaanites. His point is that there are no "innocent" people. All are under the judgment of God, and because God extends mercy to us we come to expect it and are amazed and bewildered when we face judgment.
"Sproul refers to Hans Kung, "...the most mysterious aspect of the mystery of sin is not that sinners deserve to die, but rather that the sinner in the average situation continues to exist." p.153. "In fact He (God) is so slow to anger that when His anger does erupt we are shocked and offended by it. We forget rather quickly that God's patience is designed to lead us to repentance, to give us time to be redeemed."
"Sproul has an interesting comment on Luke 13:1-5 re. the Galileans killed by Pilate and the tower of Siloam falling and killing eighteen. Jesus is saying, "You should not be asking were these worst sinners, but rather, Why
didn't the tower fall on my head?" It seems to me the question has real application to us in Jan. '05. We need to be careful how we ask the question, but it is one we need to ponder. Our hearts go out to all those who died in the tragedy yet we are all under the sentence of death because of sin."
hmmmmm... interesting. i agree with the pastor i quoted above, but i am not sure i am comfortable with the notion that wesley had about natural disasters being God's judgment. yet it makes a lot of sense... what do you think? give wesley's sermon a read first, then respond. how do these thoughts fit with our thinking today?
1.12.2005
john wesley on tsunamii (plural of tsunami?)
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5 comments:
Interesting stuff.
Since the 'fire and brimstone' preaching reached its heights, the North American church has pretty much made God a pacifist. We've made Him only a God of love and no longer a God of wrath. I got Who forgives, but doesn't judge.
We're wrong.
I know that God is in control of all things. He was not surprised by the earthquake or Tsunamii, obviously. He, at the very least, allowed it to happen. It's either directly a judgment, or He uses it as a reminder of His judgment.
Actually, somebody asked me this question after church last week: 'Did God cause the Tsunami?' My answer was, 'I don't know if God directly caused the Tsunami, but if He did He's also there no caring for the hurting, He was also there helping some to escape. He's in the hearts of those who are helping financially and/or giving their resources/services.'
i think much of our opinions boil down to how we view God's present role in our universe. did God wind it up and let it go, or is he involved in sustaining it every minute of every day? or is it some combination of the two? i think the answer to this question determines in a large degree how we will approach the issue of God's role in "natural" disasters.
brando....a nice resource on that question is Providence and Prayer by Terrance Tiessen. he goes through different models of providence and concludes with his own. it is very fair to all models treated.
since sproul is a calvinist, i think it fair to give a rather poor quote of john calvin: God's wrath is a human construction for those who are not in his love. something like that. my opinion: if we take seriously the penal substitution theory of atonement (the wrath of God is poured out on Jesus Christ in our place), then what wrath has God left? was it not emptied on Jesus? could the Son not handle all of God's wrath? it's a question i wrestle with and lean towards God's wrath being the experience who cannot stand to be in God's presence, though his presence is inescapable.
that is a very good point ap, about the penal substitution theory. i didn't understand your last sentence though. could you explain?
and how does this relate to creation? as in, how do we explain the source of natural disasters? if God is continually sustaining our world, then natural disasters have to be linked directly to some action or inaction on God's part. if he is not directly sustaining, if natural disasters are a result simply of natural causes, then why does God allow them? if, like you said ap, God's wrath has been completely absorbed by Christ, then why do these things happen? what purpose do they serve?
on a somewhat unrelated note, if God's wrath has been completely absorbed by Christ, how can God judge sinful people after death? in what you said, it sounded like you said that God has no wrath left to pour out - that jesus took it all. since that statement was in the context of natural disasters which affect both believers and unbelievers, it would follow that there is no wrath left even for an unbeliever. what then is the role of forgiveness and judgment? what is the hell that Jesus spoke of so often? what is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever, in eternal ramifications? could you explain further what you mean, ap? i am not sure i understand your thought the way you mean it.
Because God’s love is so serious, intense, overpowering, and beautiful, those who wish to be rid of his presence (where his love is found) experience his wrath. it is not that God is angry, but that God cannot cease to be who he is—he cannot stop being Lord; and when one wishes to be rid of God’s presence, it is because they want to be lord, which is wrong. The one stopping this personal lordship from happening must be experienced against the one who wants to be lord. I think I can say it best with an analogy. The parent who does not allow their child to run away from home, but forces them to continue obeying their rules. The parent is doing this out of love for the child, but the child has no idea how they are being loved when they can’t have what they really want—their independence (personal lordship). So, the child figures the parent is against them—being unfair, mean, trying, etc., when they are really loving the child.
Re: natural disasters. I think sin grieved God and he withdrew from an intimate relationship with creation. Pentecost (the sending of the Spirit) goes a long way to restoring this intimacy, but Christ has not yet returned and implemented his authority over all the earth now. As a result, the curse that creation suffered still shows its effects (I don’t think God cursed creation, but that the relationship between humans and creation is so strong that creation was cursed—suffered—as a result of our sin.) so, nature still works in a sense of providence—some order to it, but still acts out of control at times. Do I think God could have stopped it? Yes. I have no idea why he didn’t. I know that when history draws to a close we will make sense of it in his kingdom. I’m not sure they serve a purpose; in fact, being drawn to existentialism, I’m pretty sure there was no purpose, just reaction.
Re: judgment. God’s wrath is turning people over to their sinful desires as Paul says in Romans. He will not change their will to submit to his Lordship in Jesus Christ, but because he upholds all things, he even upholds their will that makes them miserable. The judgment is the declaration of these things, when there will be no dispute about who is Lord and who isn’t. so, is there wrath left? Yes…but it’s a wrath of one’s own making. C.S. Lewis compared it to a drunk who in spite of having all blinders removed from his eyes chooses to climb back into a bottle of beer and drown his sorrows. As a drunk he can experience no relationship, no joy, no happiness, no relief; he is always searching for more and miserable. This person is under the wrath of God because God’s love will not let him go, but neither will this person change their mind. They are creating their own wrathful experience.
Hope this helps out.
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